For all I know, the Syrian secessionists (if that's what the original local revolutionists should be called) are all gone and the fighters of today are nearly all foreign invaders

Given that both the government and ISIS armies both specifically targeted them first they likely are all gone. If you go back to Al Jazeera's coverage of the early Russian offensives, their airstrikes and attacks were ignoring the ISIS held territory and only hitting the moderate/legitimate rebels. Similarly, pretty much all reports of the ISIS foreign fighters coming in were that they never pretended to support the rebels, but merely replaced them demanding obedience or death.

@radx

The foreign element is fighting both sides of the war. The strongest fighting force on the 'rebel' side is ISIS and the strongest fighting force overall is the Russians fighting for Assad. If foreign support makes the rebels illegitimate doesn't it do the same for Assad?

The Saudis delivered US ordnance to another funeral, killing 140+:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/23a212a8fb3947c6b7b26d0544a702bf/officials-saudi-led-coalition-airstrike-hits-yemen-funeral

It's important to remember that the Bush administration refused to support a Saudi war against the Houthis while Obama gave them the green light...

@Barbar
i do not know if you are aware,but you actually made my point in regards to justification.specifically your third paragraph.

as for the disagreement in regards to religious texts being inert and neutral.this should not really be an issue and should be plain for all to see.religious texts are amalgamations,musings,stories,philosophies all jammed into a canonized text.they are often hypocritical and contradictory.it is the reader that interprets and injects their own subjective understandings based on their own proclivities.

which then makes religious text a subjective text.so if you are violent,then your interpretations will be violence,which would lead to justifications based on those interpretations.

unless you are using fundamentalism as a fulcrum.which sees religious text as the unerring word of god,which brings a whole new conundrum into focus:contradictory philosophies which are in diametric opposition.which is an impossibility to reconcile,but again brings us to my main point:justification.(by way of mental gymnastics).

and harris does not just smell like apologist BS,he IS an apologist.now this is understandable when seen through the lens of nationalism,but it engages in the same wishful thinking harris accuses many religious people of engaging in.

we WANT to feel we are the good guys.
we WANT to think that what we are doing is for a higher,and more morale purpose.
we WANT to think all this violence and bloodshed is ultimately for a better and more prosperous future for everybody involved.
we WANT to believe that our government is not just destroying and destabilizing whole communities with wanton destruction just so our corporations can have a new market to exploit,or to control the oil fields for BP and chevron to control.

but thats not the reality.
our wants are just wishful thinking and an inability to accept that we cling to these wants to justify horror,destruction and death.

https://theintercept.com/2015/10/05/the-radically-changing-story-of-the-u-s-airstrike-on-afghan-hospital-from-mistake-to-justification/

so what is OUR justification?
so just like the more moderate and secular muslims who look the other way when faced with horror.we too,look away at the truth of things,because to recognize the reality means to accept responsibility.
we have blood on our hands....all of us.
as do those muslims who also look away.

but the allure of justifications....
to have the ability to turn horror into righteousness.
it is extremely powerful,and we ALL participate.
even sam harris.

You have been awarded 1 Power Point for fixing the embed code for Dead Pool video Massive Israeli Bunker Buster Airstrikes in Gaza. Thank you for helping maintain VideoSift's reliability.

Here's mine:
01/21/2008 06:35 AM 1,126,396 Activision-Aliens C64's Drop Ship Soundtrack.mp3
02/13/2006 01:00 AM 2,836,608 Day of Defeat Source Theme.mp3
12/19/2000 04:31 AM 5,318,656 EMPEROR-BATTLE FOR DUNE -- HARKONNEN THEME.MP3
05/27/1999 06:01 AM 5,095,424 Lee Jackson - Duke Nukem Theme (Grabbag).mp3
11/01/2009 05:05 PM 3,183,221 NIGHTkilla - Tetris Remix.mp3
11/12/2005 06:34 PM 1,646,592 No One Lives Forever 2 theme.mp3
10/31/2009 02:16 PM 2,971,316 Parkerman1700 - Tetris Remix.mp3
10/21/2007 11:27 AM 4,893,946 THC Flatline - Rastan Saga (Song 2).mp3
09/24/2006 12:49 PM 2,105,472 The Maniacs of Noise - Golden Axe Level Music (C64).mp3
9 File(s) 29,177,631 bytes

10/27/2007 01:41 PM 5,012,365 Christopher Tin - Baba Yetu (Civilization 4 Opening Menu).mp3
08/16/2008 03:19 PM 12,081,866 Christopher Tin-Video Games Live - Bab Yetu-Civilization IV Medley.mp3
2 File(s) 17,094,231 bytes

Command & Conquer Series\Red Alert 1 (RA)
01/04/1998 06:55 AM 6,132,818 01 - RA Hell March.mp3
05/22/2000 05:14 PM 3,914,378 02 - RA Radio.mp3
01/04/1998 06:56 AM 3,662,510 03 - RA Crush.mp3
01/04/1998 06:55 AM 3,750,914 04 - RA Roll Out.mp3
01/04/1998 06:56 AM 4,611,184 05 - RA Mud.mp3
01/04/1998 06:56 AM 3,761,018 06 - RA Twin Cannon.mp3
01/04/1998 07:12 AM 5,368,542 07 - RA Face Enemy.mp3
01/04/1998 07:12 AM 4,996,076 08 - RA Run.mp3
05/22/2000 05:07 PM 5,031,520 09 - RA Terminate.mp3
11/04/2000 03:37 PM 6,295,552 10 - RA - FRANK KLEPACKI - BIGFOOT.MP3
05/22/2000 04:59 PM 4,537,792 11 - RA Workmen.mp3
05/22/2000 05:07 PM 1,757,236 12 - RA Militant Force.mp3
05/22/2000 05:07 PM 7,784,138 15 - RA Smash.mp3
13 File(s) 61,603,678 bytes

Command & Conquer Series\Tiberian Dawn (TD)
05/22/2000 04:55 PM 2,760,538 01 - TD Act on Instinct.mp3
05/22/2000 04:56 PM 3,214,652 02 - TD No Mercy.mp3
05/22/2000 04:56 PM 2,769,296 03 - TD Industrial 1.mp3
05/22/2000 04:56 PM 3,029,086 05 - TD We Will Stop Them.mp3
05/22/2000 05:14 PM 2,894,396 06 - TD Radio.mp3
05/22/2000 04:57 PM 2,908,990 07 - TD On the Prowl.mp3
05/22/2000 04:57 PM 4,195,436 08 - TD Re-con.mp3
04/05/2013 05:18 PM 3,714,765 10 - TD In The Line of Fire.mp3
05/22/2000 05:00 PM 2,899,334 11 - TD Prepare for Battle.mp3
05/22/2000 05:09 PM 4,070,336 12 - TD Depth Charge.mp3
05/22/2000 05:12 PM 2,465,302 13 - TD Rain In the Night.mp3
05/22/2000 05:13 PM 2,757,620 15 - TD Target.mp3
05/22/2000 05:11 PM 2,281,406 16 - TD Just Do It.mp3
05/22/2000 05:08 PM 3,079,126 17 - TD C&C Thang.mp3
05/22/2000 05:13 PM 2,646,698 18 - TD To Be Feared.mp3
05/22/2000 05:09 PM 4,265,074 19 - TD Drilled.mp3
05/22/2000 05:10 PM 2,511,458 21 - TD In Trouble.mp3
05/22/2000 05:08 PM 2,281,274 22 - TD Airstrike.mp3
18 File(s) 54,744,787 bytes

DOOM soundtracks\Bigfoot-Tunes
11/01/2009 04:32 PM 2,565,059 Bigfoot-Tunes - Doom 2 M9 - The Pit.mp3
11/01/2009 05:26 PM 1,534,372 Bigfoot-Tunes - DOOM E1M1 Remix.mp3
11/01/2009 05:26 PM 728,129 Bigfoot-Tunes - DOOM E3M1 Remix.mp3
3 File(s) 4,827,560 bytes

DOOM soundtracks\DOOM1
06/02/2000 12:14 PM 1,704,148 DOOM - At Doom's Gate.mp3
06/02/2000 12:33 PM 3,483,818 DOOM - Hiding The Secrets.mp3
06/02/2000 04:57 PM 4,609,382 DOOM - Into Sandy's City.mp3
06/02/2000 05:36 PM 3,722,055 DOOM - Kitchen Ace.mp3
06/02/2000 05:52 PM 1,534,874 DOOM - On The Hunt.mp3
06/02/2000 06:31 PM 3,992,056 DOOM - Running From Evil.mp3
06/02/2000 07:14 PM 4,850,544 DOOM - Sign Of Evil.mp3
06/02/2000 07:44 PM 2,952,174 DOOM - Sinister.mp3
06/02/2000 08:20 PM 3,352,161 DOOM - The Demon's Dead.mp3
06/02/2000 08:53 PM 2,861,477 DOOM - The End of DOOM.mp3
09/11/2002 10:43 AM 1,230,848 E1M2 - The Imp's Song.mp2
09/11/2002 10:42 AM 1,187,840 E1M7 - Demons on the Prey.mp2
09/11/2002 10:42 AM 1,198,080 E2M1 - I Sawed the Demons.mp2
09/11/2002 10:42 AM 1,202,176 E2M2 - The Demons from Adrian's Pen.mp2
09/11/2002 10:44 AM 831,616 E2M7 - Waltz of the Demons.mp2
09/11/2002 10:44 AM 764,032 E3M1 - Untitled.mp2
09/11/2002 10:45 AM 934,016 E3M2 - Donna to the Rescue.mp2
17 File(s) 40,411,297 bytes

DOOM1\Sonic Clang's Classic DOOM Soundtracks
12/18/2005 12:02 PM 3,850,240 Sonic Clang - Classic DOOM E1M2.mp3
12/18/2005 12:02 PM 3,928,064 Sonic Clang - Classic DOOM E1M5.mp3
12/18/2005 12:02 PM 2,197,504 Sonic Clang - Classic DOOM E1M6.mp3
12/18/2005 12:02 PM 3,715,072 Sonic Clang - Classic DOOM E1M7.mp3
12/18/2005 12:03 PM 5,836,800 Sonic Clang - Classic DOOM E1M8.mp3
5 File(s) 19,527,680 bytes

DOOM soundtracks\DOOM2
09/11/2002 10:48 AM 1,820,800 Map01 - Running from Evil.mp2
09/11/2002 10:52 AM 2,308,224 Map02 - The Healer Stalks.mp2
09/11/2002 10:52 AM 1,816,704 Map03 - Countdown to Death.mp2
09/11/2002 10:53 AM 2,054,272 Map05 - DOOM.mp2
09/11/2002 10:53 AM 2,039,936 Map07 - Shawn's Got the Shotgun.mp2
09/11/2002 10:54 AM 2,375,808 Map08 - The Dave D Taylor Blues.mp2
09/11/2002 10:55 AM 2,420,864 Map18 - Waiting for Romero to Play.mp2
7 File(s) 14,836,608 bytes

DOOM soundtracks\Remixes

09/09/2002 06:04 PM 1,524,884 Doom 02 - Victory Music.mp2
09/09/2002 06:08 PM 2,276,594 Doom 2 03 - Endgame.mp2
09/09/2002 04:45 PM 4,961,175 doom02.mp3
09/09/2002 04:50 PM 4,522,736 doom03.mp3
09/09/2002 05:01 PM 4,745,090 doom05.mp3
09/09/2002 05:18 PM 5,329,397 doom08.mp3
09/09/2002 05:23 PM 5,015,510 doom09.mp3
09/09/2002 05:28 PM 4,664,424 doom10.mp3
09/09/2002 05:34 PM 4,929,410 doom11-victory.mp3
09/09/2002 05:38 PM 3,540,950 doom2_06.mp3
09/09/2002 05:47 PM 4,001,123 doom2_09.mp3
09/09/2002 05:51 PM 3,520,470 doom2_10.mp3
09/09/2002 06:02 PM 2,594,272 doom2_18.mp3
13 File(s) 51,626,035 bytes

DOOM soundtracks\Steve Rot's DOOM Tribute\Hell On Earth - DOOM 2
08/14/2010 01:44 PM 6,738,831 2-05 Map02.mp3
08/14/2010 01:44 PM 5,600,937 2-06 Map03.mp3
08/14/2010 01:44 PM 6,491,713 2-12 Map09.mp3
08/14/2010 01:44 PM 6,168,840 2-13 Map10.mp3
08/14/2010 01:44 PM 7,026,701 2-14 Map18.mp3
5 File(s) 32,027,022 bytes

DOOM soundtracks\Steve Rot's DOOM Tribute\Phobos Anomaly - DOOM 1
08/14/2010 01:43 PM 2,912,778 3-02 E1M1 Hangar.mp3
08/14/2010 01:43 PM 4,202,189 3-03 E1M2 Nuclear Plant.mp3
08/14/2010 01:43 PM 2,672,463 3-07 E1M6 Central Processing.mp3
08/14/2010 01:43 PM 4,302,500 3-09 E1M8 Phobos Anomaly.mp3
08/14/2010 01:43 PM 3,731,463 3-10 E1M9 Military Base.mp3
5 File(s) 17,821,393 bytes

Duke Nukem 3D
12/27/2009 05:23 PM 1,599,197 Potorrero - Aliens, Say Your Prayers (Rock) [Duke Nukem 3D E2M7].mp3
12/22/2009 11:42 PM 2,668,975 Robert C. Prince III - Aliens, Say Your Prayers! from Duke Nukem 3D E2M7.ogg
2 File(s) 4,268,172 bytes

Duke Nukem 3D\Bobby Prince and Lee Jackson
12/27/2009 05:54 PM 1,020,895 Bobby Prince and Lee Jackson - Grabbag (Short Duke Nukem 3D Theme).wma
12/24/2009 01:56 PM 2,646,367 Bobby Prince and Lee Jackson - Stalker (Duke Nukem 3D E1M1).wma
12/24/2009 02:04 PM 5,777,791 Bobby Prince and Lee Jackson - The City Streets.wma
3 File(s) 9,445,053 bytes

Duke Nukem 3D\Mark McWane and others
12/24/2009 02:01 PM 3,039,203 Mark McWane and Lee Jackson - Stalker (Duke Nukem 3D E1M1).mp3
12/23/2009 11:09 PM 3,045,302 Mark McWane and Robert C. Prince III - Aliens, Say Your Prayers! - Episode 2, Level 7, Duke Nukem.mp3
12/24/2009 02:02 PM 5,729,412 Mark McWane and Robert C. Prince III - The City Streets - Duke Nukem 3D (E1M3).mp3
3 File(s) 11,813,917 bytes

Golden Axe Soundtracks
09/17/2011 08:04 PM 4,340,464 Aki Jrvinen - Golden Axe - Path of Fiend Metal Remix.mp3
09/17/2011 07:55 PM 4,359,400 Aki Jrvinen - Golden Axe First Level Metal Remake.mp3
09/17/2011 08:10 PM 8,840,613 daXX - Golden Axe Orchestra Remix.mp3
01/29/2001 06:20 PM 4,757,504 DJ Pretzel - Golden Axe Death Adder Trance - OC ReMix.mp3
01/29/2001 06:20 PM 3,768,320 Golden Axe - Battlefield.mp3
01/29/2001 06:21 PM 2,515,072 Golden Axe - Fiends Path.mp3
01/29/2001 06:21 PM 3,440,768 Golden Axe - Wilderness.mp3
10/14/2012 09:44 AM 3,891,182 Jeroen Tel - C64 - Golden Axe - Battle Field (Boss).mp3
10/14/2012 09:45 AM 7,150,427 Jeroen Tel - C64 - Golden Axe - Wilderness.mp3
02/20/2013 07:19 PM 7,241,856 MusicWizard - Golden Axe - Stage 1 v.2 FINAL [Remake].mp3
10/29/2006 02:38 PM 2,492,544 Sega - Golden Axe 05.mp3
10/29/2006 02:38 PM 2,328,576 Sega - Golden Axe 09.mp3
12 File(s) 55,126,726 bytes

Golden Axe Soundtracks\Playstation 2
06/08/2004 10:05 PM 4,653,056 Golden Axe (PS2) - Battle Field.mp3
06/08/2004 10:05 PM 3,792,896 Golden Axe (PS2) - Fiend's Path.mp3
06/08/2004 10:05 PM 5,234,688 Golden Axe (PS2) - Wilderness.mp3
3 File(s) 13,680,640 bytes

Jonathan Coulton - Still Alive (Portal)
01/29/2008 06:18 AM 3,990,907 Jonathan Coulton - Still Alive (J.C. Version) [Portal].mp3
01/29/2008 06:17 AM 4,131,754 Jonathan Coulton and GLaDOS - Still Alive (Portal).mp3
2 File(s) 8,122,661 bytes

Stuart Chatwood - Prince of Persia: Sand of Times
03/17/2004 11:17 PM 7,262,208 Stuart Chatwood - The Fight (Prince of Persia-SOT).mp3
03/17/2004 11:10 PM 6,262,784 StuartChatwood-TimeOnlyKnows (Prince of Persia-SOT).mp3
2 File(s) 13,524,992 bytes

Total Files Listed:
124 File(s) 459,680,083 bytes


Also, I have Turbo Graphx 16/PC Engine and Sega Genesis' soundtracks for Aero Blasters and R-Type 1 games.

Living in Minnesota I find the idea of calling in a napalm airstrike on myself rather appealing right now. As for fighting without pants, just pretend you're a berserker.

I thought suppressive fire is standard military training. As a soldier, you are in combat like maybe 1% of the time during an actual war. Firefights are usually short. Its mostly waiting and patrolling and sleeping and more waiting. even in high-intensity wars like vietnam or WW2. More recent wars are even slower. So during those minutes or hours of actual fighting, suppressive fire is key to victory. It keeps heads down until backup/artillery/airstrikes can be called in. My combat training in the army was like 80% suppressive fire. I was in recon, so we mostly had fire-while-retreating scenarios where alternate halfs of a team fires and retreats.

So you're saying that there is trouble in the Middle East again?

Seriously though, what is expected of either side in all of this? Israel initiated it by killing Hamas military leader. You know, the leader sworn to removing Israel from existence and directly responsible for planning and preparing direct attacks on Israel with that goal. Still, Israel can be faulted for being too aggressive in that. But what followed was hundreds of volleys of rockets aimed at Israeli civilians, only killing very few, but reaching further into Israel than ever before. Including claims, later verified, by the militants that the rockets where Iranian in origin. So Israel's worries and concerns about Hamas being armed and used as a proxy by Israels enemies is proven, again.

If you are fair, it is easy to see both side's reasons for outrage, anger and retaliation. The answer isn't to blame one side or the other. Israel has legitimate security concerns from Hamas, and all the regional nations arming them. The Gaza people are legitimately living in decrepit conditions and it is no surprise a group like Hamas has an easy time recruiting there. It's hard to blame the people of Israel and Gaza for supporting those acting in their own defense.

Why do I say this? Simply to observe that if it was as simple minded a problem as your statement, things would've been resolved ages ago. The answer, regrettably, isn't as simple as simply demanding Israel passively sit there and ignore every threat, attack and act of aggression against it.

>> ^Kofi:

Every bomb equals people being killed, injured or maimed. Innocent and guilty alike. Remember, as Biden said "Israel is our closest ally". Now wonder why the Arab world is dubious if not hostile to America's claims of being a force force for good in the world. Can you blame them for being skeptical?

>> ^nach0s:

I was wondering why he was out in the open too. Then I read the video description... did you guys?


His post-hoc rationalization of what he was doing doesn't help matters. He acted in a really dumb way. If he's so heroic, then why did he get himself shot, then hole up in a position where the cavalry would have to run through the same hail of bullets to rescue him, shouting "Medic! I'm hit!" over and over.

No, what he says after the fact simply ain't true. He panicked, he thought he was superhuman, he just wasn't thinking straight, he suffered from a lack of training.

And no, I'm not getting this from my FPS experience, but from my Army experience and Veteran status. What he did was wrong, it endangered his life and the lives of his squad-mates. First off, they weren't pinned down by machine-gun fire, I only heard single shots and short bursts incoming. Secondly, fighting a hit-and-fade enemy like the Taliban, being "pinned down" is not a bad place to be. If you wait them out they'll take to the hills. They don't want to wait for the airstrike they know is coming. Third, by running down the hill and getting shot he forced some of his guys to come get him, endangering their lives. Lastly, he said in his blurb he was under the command of an Lt. yet he didn't wait for an order, nor did he appear to be acting on an order, he just ran off with his cock in his hand and a big "shoot me" sign on his chest and left it to his allies to come clean up the mess.

>> ^visionep:

Scary... seems like a tactically dubious situation to be running down a hill open to known aggressors don't they usually throw smoke or something to create some cover when there isn't any?
The fisheye affect of the camera makes it hard to see if there was any cover to be had from the terrain, the rock he ducks down behind looks pretty small.
Since he was able to post the video I guess his buddies were able to locate the bad guys firing positions, or maybe they just called in an airstrike on the whole village to clear the area.


Smoke isn't as effective as it seems in the movies or in video games. I've never heard of it actually being used in this sort of situation as concealment (note, cover is hard, stops bullets, concealment hides you, but won't stop a bullet).

Judging from what I saw, the most likely scenario was that the Taliban just retreated. They know they can't keep up a full-on engagement for long before the cavalry arrives in one form or another.

Scary... seems like a tactically dubious situation to be running down a hill open to known aggressors don't they usually throw smoke or something to create some cover when there isn't any?

The fisheye affect of the camera makes it hard to see if there was any cover to be had from the terrain, the rock he ducks down behind looks pretty small.

Since he was able to post the video I guess his buddies were able to locate the bad guys firing positions, or maybe they just called in an airstrike on the whole village to clear the area.

>> ^darkrowan:

For all the goofieness of this vid it does bring up a good question: Who's replacing them? Could be, like The Who said, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"?


Seems to be, unlike popular uprisings in some other countries which have resulted in the overthrow of a dictator by the people, this has been paid gangs of thugs backed by NATO airstrikes dealing with Qadhafi and any local resistance. What seems most worrisome is the National Transitional Councils decision to give policy decision making authority out to corporations, for example:
Monetary policy is handled by the Central Bank of Benghazi
http://www.ntclibya.org/english/meeting-on-19-march-2011/

..and oil policy is handled by... The Libyan Oil Company.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-21/libyan-rebel-council-sets-up-oil-company-to-replace-qaddafi-s.html

Pretty much the same as if Bank of America were given full authority to handle all policy decisions for America's banking system, or if Exxon Mobil got to make all fossil fuel and environmental policy.

You may be right, it does seem like every time "we" get involved it turns to shit faster - it could be that it's shit already and the media exposure makes it apparent to us. I dunno. I'm not a politician, general or intelligence officer, I can only work on the evidence in front of me.

It's basically one big shit storm either way.
>> ^radx:

Well, we are sitting and watching as civilians are butchered, aren't we? Jemen and Bahrain are right nextdoor, but those dictatorships are still backed up. Not to mention the Saudis, who sent troops to gun down the protest in Bahrain.
And who are "the people" in Lybia? I still haven't heard any clear information about the rebels in Libya. From where I'm standing, it still looks very much like a fight between different clans, a civil war. Egypt in particular can't be compared, almost the entire people were rebelling against Mubarak. That's clearly not the case in Libya.
We know jack shit about the domestic context of all the non-Gaddafi actors on the ground, so the kind of intervention currently taking place, an external intervention for mixed motivations, is likely to backfire. Mixed motivations, because I don't believe for a second that oil and particularly the refugee issue are not taken into account in any decision making process.
I'm not saying the UN resolution is right or wrong, I'm simply saying it's a fucking hypocrisy to start a "humanitarian intervention" while supporting the same behaviour next door. Not that I believe in any reasonable chance of success of such an intervention by NATO powers without strong support from at least Turkey and the Arab nations anyway. The Arab League already condemned the airstrikes, so their support is not as strong as it was claimed to be. And why would it, both the Arab League and the CCASG consist of oppressive regimes themselves. If the Arab nations were serious about ending Gaddafi's rule over his people, they would have to take the lead on this one. The track record of NATO/EU intervention is one catastrophe after another, so it has to be them.
There is an obligation to help the civilians currently being slaughtered, but the current plan appears to have risks for the Libyan people outweighing the humanitarian benefit. The best use of the UNSC Resolution seems to use it as little as possible. Any form of escalation will only make things worse. It's up to the opposition now to demonstrate that they have the backing of the people, then their political and popular weight could cause the regime to implode.
Still, it just feels like Kosovo all over again, UÇK and everything, but worse.
>> ^gwiz665:
The people are trying to stand up to him, and he's committing outright genocide. Of course, we must do what we can to help the people liberate themselves. Unlike Iraq, this is not just for the hell of it - we are helping the people free themselves, when they do not have the strength themselves, as opposed to Egypt, Tunesia and so on.
If we sit and watch as the civilians are butchered, we are no better (or at least very little better) than the butchers ourselves.

Sarkozy might have reasons of his own, domestic ones. And let's not forget that just last year, France backed Morocco against the civil uprise in Western Sahara by blocking the UN.
>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
even though I think it is France (lol?) leading the charge on this one.

Well, we are sitting and watching as civilians are butchered, aren't we? Jemen and Bahrain are right nextdoor, but those dictatorships are still backed up. Not to mention the Saudis, who sent troops to gun down the protest in Bahrain.

And who are "the people" in Lybia? I still haven't heard any clear information about the rebels in Libya. From where I'm standing, it still looks very much like a fight between different clans, a civil war. Egypt in particular can't be compared, almost the entire people were rebelling against Mubarak. That's clearly not the case in Libya.

We know jack shit about the domestic context of all the non-Gaddafi actors on the ground, so the kind of intervention currently taking place, an external intervention for mixed motivations, is likely to backfire. Mixed motivations, because I don't believe for a second that oil and particularly the refugee issue are not taken into account in any decision making process.

I'm not saying the UN resolution is right or wrong, I'm simply saying it's a fucking hypocrisy to start a "humanitarian intervention" while supporting the same behaviour next door. Not that I believe in any reasonable chance of success of such an intervention by NATO powers without strong support from at least Turkey and the Arab nations anyway. The Arab League already condemned the airstrikes, so their support is not as strong as it was claimed to be. And why would it, both the Arab League and the CCASG consist of oppressive regimes themselves. If the Arab nations were serious about ending Gaddafi's rule over his people, they would have to take the lead on this one. The track record of NATO/EU intervention is one catastrophe after another, so it has to be them.

There is an obligation to help the civilians currently being slaughtered, but the current plan appears to have risks for the Libyan people outweighing the humanitarian benefit. The best use of the UNSC Resolution seems to use it as little as possible. Any form of escalation will only make things worse. It's up to the opposition now to demonstrate that they have the backing of the people, then their political and popular weight could cause the regime to implode.

Still, it just feels like Kosovo all over again, UÇK and everything, but worse.
>> ^gwiz665:

The people are trying to stand up to him, and he's committing outright genocide. Of course, we must do what we can to help the people liberate themselves. Unlike Iraq, this is not just for the hell of it - we are helping the people free themselves, when they do not have the strength themselves, as opposed to Egypt, Tunesia and so on.
If we sit and watch as the civilians are butchered, we are no better (or at least very little better) than the butchers ourselves.


Sarkozy might have reasons of his own, domestic ones. And let's not forget that just last year, France backed Morocco against the civil uprise in Western Sahara by blocking the UN.
>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

even though I think it is France (lol?) leading the charge on this one.

Yeah the foreign media has it all wrong. They don't use camels and guns to blow up Palestinians, they use tanks bulldozers and airstrikes to destroy their homes! Completely different story! They're just aiming at the HOUSES (and occasionally the U.N.) not the PEOPLE.

Israelis deserve all the bad press they get in the Western media and more. Their country is more like Nazi Germany than they'd ever admit and it's painfully clear that they are on a mission of, 'ethnic cleansing'. But I guess the rules change when the jackboot is on your foot for a change huh?